BUTTHOLE SURFERS

Vertigo: What do think it is about Texas? You've got everything from the Elevators onwards... Just this amazing music coming from Texas?

Paul: Hell, it's a nice place to start too. The Elevators...

Vertigo: Yeah. The picture we get from over here, you've got this thing going with all these Texas garage compilations, The Elevators, Red Crayola, Daniel Johnston, The Buttholes.....

King: I don't know what it is about Texas. There is a kind of commonality there of these people who are just going off in their little musical world. I think it might be that we're kind of culturally and geographically isolated from the rest of the U.S., so we get to evolve in our own Darwinian fashion. And the bands that inspired us were just basically the bands we saw in Austin. And like, not that many bands would really come through town that often. So I think the Buttholes were as much influenced by local bands like the Big Boys and the Ticks than our peers, like Scratch Acid and stuff, like what's happening in the US or the UK at the time. And I think it's always the same thing, like that's already a generation in front of us, with bands like like that. Like even by psychedelic standards Texas bands were weird. I really don't know what causes it, I really don't...

Vertigo: And you're still supporting that, with Roky Erickson releases on your own label and stuff...?

King: Oh, sure...

Vertigo: So is Trance's purpose to keep this Texan thing going or is it just stuff that you're into or whatever...

King: Well, it's like, Roky is a hero of ours, the guy is just a genius and we were offered the chance to do the album. You know, I jumped on it. But it was such a big responsibility. We tried to do it as well as we could, but that was a real honour. And I think Texas has just this naturalistic mentality. Like, Texans, actually there is a separatist movement in Texas because it used to be a nation for a long time... Fifteen years is a long time... It used to be a nation, but I think Texans like to work with Texans to promote the whole Texan sort of thing... I dont know... That's part of the reason.

There's just a lot of good bands in Texas and there wasn't a good label at the time putting out records for those bands. I mean, we're back to my experience with the Buttholes, and the band had to go to California to get the interest of some people, and later Detroit. There just wasn't anybody in Texas putting out records and I've seen a lot of good Texas bands come and go, because you can't tour the US if you don't have a record out so it's kind of a Catch 22 thing. So it was just high time that a Texas record label came into existence. I guess by 1990 I think, that's when I had enough resources and some bit of knowledge of how to maybe pull it off, you know. It was time to do it, so I guess that's the reason why.

Paul: The Texas thing is difficult to relate to the West Coast or East Coast thing.We're not going to be cool, we know we're not going to be cool, so Texans don't try to be cool. They try to do what they really want to and that's probably where people on other coasts get hung up. Vertigo: Yeah. We're just trying to find out what you're about in your own right, rather than plug you in with East coast or West coast or whatever...

King: Texas is just a peculiar place! (laughter) We can't help it!

Vertigo: Yeah. But even since the sixties or even the fifties...

King: Buddy Holly, Roy Orbison....

Vertigo: Yeah, it's always produced really forward thinking stuff...

King: Well, it's an incredibly hot place, and the only thing to do in the summer is to drink alcohol and try to escape the heat and I think after a while your mind begins to ferment and go off in a lot of directions so you know, and maybe combined with Mexico too, maybe somehow it does things to your mind and your body (laughter)..... I mean, we have a distinct culture apart from the rest of the US. We're just our own, I don't know, like Australia or something, I don't know...

Paul: Halfway to being Mexico!

King: That's right...

Vertigo: I saw this video of the Elevators playing this TV show at a pool party, and there's all these people having a pool party....

King: Wooooeee!

Vertigo: ....and the Elevators are playing, but they're just not there, just like staring into the sky, and all these teens going Yeah, Yeah! Excellent! and dancing about, and it was just odd, like the disposition of the Elevators and all these teens standing about who just didn't have a clue what the Elevators were going on about.

Vertigo: No one knows what the fuck's going on with bands from Texas...

Paul: And we created the ultimate hero in Willie Nelson...

Vertigo: Yeah! Well, Willie Nelson, he...

Paul: When you look at what he does with his life, you know, he'll tell you right off the bat that he retired years ago and yet he's always on the road doing shows. I mean this guy is in his mid-sixties and nobody can keep up with him. And he sets a standard of honesty and integrity in his music, you know. He stood up for what he believed in musically and had to stand up to his record company that wanted him to go to Nashville. And he kept in Texas, and recorded his most successful album in Texas, did it his way and, I don't know, he's a good hero to look up to.

Vertigo: Things like country music. We just heard Ring of Fire by Johnny Cash on the radio. In his new video, he's in the dressing room doing a line of coke...

King: Johnny! He's going back to Reno! Going back to San Quentin!

Paul: Yeah......

King: Johnny!

Paul: Let's hope not.

King: Let's say a little prayer for Johnny Cash! Yeah, Johnny Cash would kick our asses collectively four times over...

Paul: Oh, right! Yeah, he would...

King: You don't want to invoke the wrath of Johnny Cash! Paul: It would be a friendly fight! (laughter)

Vertigo: Are you happy with the way the majors are handling you at the moment.

Paul: At the moment, yes. We've had top ten on the radio, and that's unheard of. Butthole Surfers make top ten on radio in the United States! That's really fucked up! But I'll take it, you know... I really expected it to be dead at this point in time, and to instead of be dead, to be in the top ten! That's power to the people, man. I mean, we're a fucking band for the people...

Vertigo: Sounds like a Killdozer manifesto...

Paul: Well I love Killdozer. They're a fucking awesome band. That's another fucking prime example of goodness in the world. Anyone can do it...

Earwax: Now you're on a major label do you have narrower choices in what you do, like touring with certain bands...

King: Well, yeah, when we went with Capital, we were actually in a premium position because we were doing fine in the whole indies and there wasn't really a compelling need for us to go with a major because we were doing fine and we were used to doing things ourselves like we had been doing for years. If we were going to be on a major it would have to be on our own terms to a large degree, so you know....

Vertigo: Did you get your own terms and conditions?

Earwax: I mean, you haven't had to have a single out or anything, have you?

King: Well actually, in the US, the Fishing Cover, which is really freakish, because it's been successful which we're not used to at all...

Vertigo: The last single we saw over here was that Good King Wenceslas single...

Paul/King: Ohhh! (ominously)

Vertigo: ... which wasn't incredibly good!

Paul: Err, it was bad. We were trying to be bad and we succeeded. That was a dark period for us. Capital asked us to do it for their Christmas record, and then err, I don't know...

King: ... Everything was so horrible, they decided not to put out a Christmas record...

Paul: But I don't know...(faltering slightly)... We had to pay our studio bills somehow so...

King: ...We'd never done a picture disc, and I kind of liked The Lord Is A Monkey so it was kind of a cool seven inch. It was like a one off thing you know...

Vertigo: You say you don't like stuff from that era. I mean, what else are you not so into that you've put out?

Paul: Well, I don't like much of what we've put out.

Vertigo: Well why are you putting it out if you don't like it?

Paul: Because I don't like it, that's why!!! (laughter) I hated it! I hated it! I keep hoping that it'll change, and it'll get better and we'll do something good, but you know! It's an art thing. If you're an artist you want to achieve something and you never quite get where you set out to go or even you don't know where you want to go...

Earwax: I think there's something wrong if you are actually content with what you are doing anyway. I think that's probably a good time to stop.

Paul: That's just it, because I'm actually halfway to starting to like our new record. You know, halfway, which is about halfway more than I liked any other one.

Earwax: It sort of felt over-produced, a bit soft on the edges...

Paul: Are you telling me that my new record is over produced?!?! (uneasy laughter).

Earwax: It totally is!

Vertigo: We didn't bother buying it. We haven't heard it.

Earwax: Like Locust Abortion... To a lot of people that is where you peaked and that is the Buttholes, isn't it?

King: I think we'd agree with you there but it'd become pointless for us if we tried to recreate an album like that over and over again. The whole point of what I think we do is that we try to do different stuff and we push ourselves, and like, once we think of an album we go and put out an album and then we can just say, this album sucks but that album was cool. But in retrospect, yeah, I think Locust Abortion and Rembrandt Pussyhorse are really cool records.

Vertigo: What do you think of the last few records, like Pioughd or Independent Worm Saloon. Are you happy with them?

King: I think Pioughd is our most hated record...

Paul: Yeah. I hate the shit out of that record...

Vertigo: So do we. Well, most of it.

Earwax: Yeah, there's a couple of songs I really like on that...

Vertigo: Yeah, I like that country song on it, Lonesome Bulldog...

King: Oh, Good! That was the one that loads of people gave us grief on!

Vertigo: Are you gonna do some more country songs? I hear The Ween are doing an album of twelve greatest country hits!

King: (Texan drawl!): Yeeeaaaahhhhh! We heard about that. That's brilliant! Yeah.

Vertigo: Yeah. I'm sort of intrigued though. Why are you putting records out that you don't like?

Paul: I'm an artist, man. I'm a fucking artist!

King: (quietly laughing) It's what we're doing at the time.

Vertigo: But are you happy with it when you're putting it out?

Paul: No!

King: If we waited until we were happy to put out something we would never put out anything ever. So sometimes we just have to record and record until we have an hours worth of material...

Paul: (interrupting): I can't think of anything I fucking like. I think everybody else's shit sucks even worse. (laughter) That's the fucking truth. Show me some decent music and I'll go and buy it, you know! I don't still think there's such a thing. It's all a fucking...

Earwax: There's nothing at the moment that you...

Paul: It's all a lie...

Earwax: ... that you are inspired by at all?

Paul: Ears! I want to see an ear that will suck fucking sand out of air and turn it to nothing...

(Five seconds silence...all eyes on Paul...should we laugh at that last one????)

Paul: (obviously still a little pissed off...) I mean, we didn't set out to do Locust Abortion Technician. It came out, you know. We don't set out to do anything that we do. We just do it, you know. It's just the phenomenon about this whole thing. There are no heroes out there. People just do what they do in the morning, you know. It's like, some people take a shit, some people fucking write a horrible stupid song, you know. We do both!

Vertigo: Was there something there though, when you were doing Locust Abortion and Rembrandt Pussyhorse, something that was there then that is missing now?

Paul: You gotta understand it, you know! If we went out to make a record with what you guys were talking about in mind...

Vertigo: ...we got nothing in mind....

Paul: ...I'd hate myself, you know. I mean, I don't know how to explain it, you know. I'm a fucking goddamn sonnofafuckingbitch artist, and I do what I do, I don't know why, you know. I wanted to be a fucking stockbroker but that didn't fucking work. I had to play goddamn punk rock guitars. And you know, I'm not asking...I don't give a shit about anybody. I do what I want to fucking do...

Vertigo:... Yeah, we're not complaining about that...

Paul:... and I don't give three fucking hoots about...

Vertigo: ...that's a good attitude!...

Paul:..(laughing)... yeah!!... That's just what it is! I really don't care if anybody likes it or not. I only care if I like it or not. I mean, you can buy it, and I'll think it's fucking hysterical. I'm really amused when there's a fucking mailman brings me a cheque. I can pay my fucking bill and buy a new pair of shoes.

King: The challenge for ourselves is to do stuff we haven't really done before, and that is a big part of the creative process, to push yourself to places you've never gone before. Like that's one reason we never locked into one genre, one style of music, and get to bring that out over and over again. Everything that we do is an experiment. Even if we're trying to do the most mainstream pop song, that in itself is the experiment. Usually it goes terribly wrong, and that's fine. But at least we're trying to do something different, you know...(laughing)

Paul: I don't understand how anybody can say anything bad about the Butthole Surfers. I mean we're fucking retarded, for Christ's fucking sake! You should encourage retarded people to do things! I want to see the British Press attend the Special Olympics and really criticise the fucking hundred yard dash because they're so fucking slow. I mean, 'These wheelchair athletes, they're so slow!!'

Vertigo: Do you get treated better in any other press?

Paul: Why aren't the Butthole Surfers above criticism? That's what I don't understand. I'm gonna start collecting toenails in mason jars, see what they say about that. I know a girl whose dad collects his toenails in a mason jar. He's got several mason jars, he's been doing it for years. I wonder what the going rate for toenails is? I'd pay some good money for a collection of toenails!

Vertigo: Some guy started collecting pubic hairs....

Paul: That's gross!

Vertigo: He's got a collection of about fifty of them. One each off all his friends...

Paul: Yeah, put it on a sandwich with some vaseline! You could make a market out of it....We're ready for the bad English journos to come and rip us up tonight. We figured we sold tickets just so people could come and give us grief.

Earwax: Is that something that really bothers you or something you thrive on?

Paul: No, I like it. I don't thrive on it but I'm sure as hell gonna fucking enjoy it. I have no choice. I'm a worker, you know. I either like the smell of garbage or I don't, you know. It's fucking, what is it today? Thursday? Garbage Day. And we are the garbage! (laughter)

Vertigo: What are you playing tonight? Are you...

Paul (avoiding question....): Like they do in Egypt, you know. Like the government workers come out in the day and they sweep the trash off the sidewalk, and in the evening the other round of government people come in and sweep it from the streets back into the sidewalk. They've got employment figured out!

Vertigo: What's with your official bootlegs. I've got a bit a gripe with the way you bootleg stuff, like Double Live and The Whole Truth and Nothing Butt... It's like old songs...

Paul: The Whole Truth was like a pirate of a bootleg.

Vertigo: But the thing is they're official bootlegs and we've already got all those songs, you know? We wanna hear the old stuff that you've got. This unreleased back catalogue of material...

Paul: Yeah, we did some stuff a long time ago. I don't know why that never came out. That was my favourite stuff we ever did. It was like fourteen years ago. It'd be nice, but a lot of our old stuff is on really strange formats, you know. You ask why a lot of these records suck, but we were like recording in someone's bathroom with a broken tape recorder, you know?

Vertigo: Yeah, but it doesn't matter. A lot of people are into that kind of recording...

Paul (laughing): Well, I'm into it too, you know, I mean.....

Vertigo: Well why not release it then?

Paul: Well, if you think what we released was bad, wait until you hear what we didn't release! (laughing)

Vertigo: But what you didn't release might have been really good!

Paul: I never know what people are going to like, you know.

Vertigo: Yeah, but we might like it, so why not release it?

Paul: Well, we're taking it all out of our storage space so we'll probably have to send a lot of our tapes away somewhere...

Vertigo: Yeah? Well send 'em our direction, cos we're fed up hearing stuff that's already been released. We feel kind of ripped off getting bootlegs of stuff we've already got on vinyl...

Paul: That's what sucks about the whole bootleg thing.

King: Don't buy it!

Vertigo: Yeah, but there'll be a couple of tracks worth buying it for...

King: I feel bad about all that, you know...

Vertigo: Why not release a bootleg of purely unreleased stuff...

King: That's a good idea. We'll do that!

Vertigo: But why couldn't you have done that with Double Live, which would have saved us the argument...

King: Well, what Double Live was, was an attempt to make the ultimate bootleg because at that time there were like four really shitty bootlegs coming out, and Double Live was what we were playing live over a two year time period. Every song we played live over that two year time period is on that double LP. The idea was to make all the other bootlegs obsolete. And it kind of worked for a while, it sort of stemmed the tide. But we made the mistake of letting it go out of print, and then people started pirating that bootleg!

Paul: So we started pirating other people's bootlegs! (laughing)

Vertigo: And that's what The Whole Truth is....

Paul: We're not in control. We're not the drivers on this rock and roll train.

King: With The Whole Truth, somebody said there was actually a decent bootleg of you guys and you should check it out, and we kind of liked it. There was this thing that was kind of charming about it as well, that it was put together by, you could tell, hardcore fans and stuff, and I couldn't really get angry at the people. So we thought, screw it, let's put it out ourselves, and be very upfront with it. Like we put a sticker on it saying that this was a bootleg, and we thought it was okay, so here it is, for what it's worth, you know...

Vertigo: Yeah, that comes across well on the cover and the insert and stuff. But we still feel ripped off. We're fans and stuff, you know, so we're gonna buy it anyway...

Paul: I agree with you. I agree with you a thousand percent. But we can't control what people put out, you know... It's hard. It's like I say, it all looks simple, you've got songs and music and recording studios and manufacturing plants, but you fail to consider like, personal tragedies, and death and destruction of the universe, constant decay... (pause) Back when we were young there was no real market for what we do. And now there is, but now we're just this aging rock band.

Vertigo: So do you think you've moved away from the DIY front with your age, that you've progressed and moved away from that scene...

Paul: I don't know what we've moved away from or whatever. The glorious thing is that I can get up in the morning and get really stoned, and do things and not have to think about it. And that's probably the most frustrating part about interviews, because interviewers say why do you do this and why do you do that, you know. Well, because... I don't know, you know...

King: As far as do-it-yourself, on the new album, we did an experiment, we actually had to work as a producer. As long as we've been a band we've never really worked as a producer before. And we kind of wound up scrapping most of that because we didn't really like it.

Vertigo: Didn't you have that guy from Led Zeppelin do the last one...

Paul: Yeah. He's gonna be here tonight too.

King: He didn't produce it. I mean, effectively, Paul produced it. It was almost the same as it ever was, with Paul behind the tape machine recording us. I guess it was different in the sense that a major's putting it out but we were recording ourselves in the studio, and that's tough work.